Out of Body


In 1983 the CIA went to the Monroe Institute and working with the Gateway Programme. Like an episode out of the X Files, they worked on developing a system for using Astral Projection by the American Government for covert operations. The recently released papers prove that even the high ranking scientists in the Organisation recognised the proof and truth of the out of body experience

Denise Linn’s personal journey began as a result of a near-death experience at age 17. Her life-changing experiences and remarkable recovery set her on a spiritual quest that led her to explore the healing traditions of many cultures, including those of her own Cherokee ancestors, the Aborigines in the Australian bush, and the Zulus in Bophuthatswana. She trained with a Hawaiian kahuna (shaman), and Reiki Master Hawayo Takata. She was also adopted into a New Zealand Maori tribe. In addition, Denise lived in a Zen Buddhist monastery for more than two years.

Denise is an internationally renowned teacher in the field of self-development. She’s the author of the bestseller ‘Sacred Space’ and the award-winning ‘Feng Shui for the Soul,’ and has written 18 books, which are available in 29 languages. Denise has appeared in numerous documentaries and television shows worldwide, and gives seminars throughout the world. For information about Denise’s certification programs and other lectures, please visit her Website: www.DeniseLinn.com

Almost all native cultures have traditions of astral travel, which is sometimes referred to as an out-of-body experience. Astral travel is when your spirit is literally separated from your physical body, and it usually occurs during sleep. It’s different from dreaming, as it’s thought to be a tangible experience and not simply an image emerging in your mind during REM sleep. In addition to a sense of separation from the physical body, there’s a self-awareness that’s extremely vivid that accompanies astral travel. Some recount a kind of silver-colored cord attaching the physical body to the astral body during nocturnal sojourns.

No Fear

There appears to be no research indicating that damage results from consciously leaving your body. In truth, it’s a very natural occurrence. It’s interesting to note that when you’re having an out-of-body experience, you don’t experience time or space as you generally do. You may find yourself slightly ahead or behind of temporal space.

Another unique phenomenon you may notice—when you first leave your body—is that you seem to remain very much in your present physical form. However, the longer you’re separated from your physical body, the less delineated the boundaries of the body become, and your “being” appears to transcend into a cloudlike vapor or some other amorphous substance.

One of the biggest blockages to astral travel is fear. Even the most intrepid of us will discover, upon deeper examination, that at some time we’ve come face-to-face with the wall of fear regarding separating from our body. First and foremost is the fear of death—the frightening notion that if we’re separated from our physical body, perhaps we’ll die. Our automatic reaction may be to get back within the physical body quickly because this is where our life is, in the physical.

We tend to have this reaction in spite of our emotional attitudes and intellectual thought processes. Only after repeating the experience many times can we hope to release the fear of death. It’s much like beginning to swim and eventually realizing that your body will float—that you won’t drown.

Another common fear is “Will I be able to get back into my body?” or “Will something occupy my body while I’m traveling?” I can say with absolute certainty that you will return to your body. There’s abundant evidence that those who experience astral travel are always able to return safely. Also, if you are concerned about entities and your body (which are almost never a problem), imagine an egg-like shield surrounding your body before you go to sleep. This simple visualization makes sure that all is well.


Astral travel isn’t uncommon in Westernized countries. We often have out-of-body experiences yet fail to recall them. (In fact, during sleep, the sensation of a quick jerk may be indicative of a rapid astral reentry into your body.) However, native tribes take out-of-body experiences for granted.

After I gave a lecture about dreams and astral travel in Australia I  met with a revered Aborigine elder. When I first saw him, he was wearing traditional kangaroo-skin clothing. Part of his upper body was exposed,showing long, deep scars across his chest made during the ceremony that marked a young boy’s transition to manhood. (Ash had been rubbed in the scars as they were healing to make the scars more pronounced.)

“I heard there was a white woman here from the States talking about dreams and astral travel. I wanted to hear what she had to say,” he said.
“Well, what did you think?” I asked, curious about his opinion.

He replied, “Everything you said was accurate, especially what you said about astral travel. All the old fellas travel in this way; it’s how we stay in touch with each other over the long distances that we live. In fact, we can tell who visited us in the night because we each leave a dusting of the earth from our area. Every area has a different type of soil, so it’s easy to tell where the dust came from. But the young folks have forgotten the old ways.”

He went on to explain that as the senior elder of his tribe, he visited young Aboriginal men in prison and taught them astral traveling. “I teach them how to travel, so even though their bodies are imprisoned, their spirits are free,” he said.

Australian Aboriginal elders, Native American shamans, African sangomas, and many healers in native cultures throughout the world practice astral traveling. Numerous esoteric religions and philosophies are based on this experience.


When I was chatting with Shkotay Maingun (Light of the Wolf), a Cherokee/Ojibwa from Manitoba, Canada, she said that if a traditional healer was not able to physically travel to someone who was in need of healing, he would “travel by clouds.” She said the journey was often arduous and even exhausting to the medicine person, and they needed substantial training to be skilled at this ability.

The pipe carrier would travel in a ceremonial way and enter via the sacred spirit tree in the center of the home. They could not get into the home if they didn’t enter through the tree. (Every home is said to have an invisible, yet very real spirit tree at its center.) Also, the patient needed to prepare for the visit by sleeping with tobacco under their pillow for four days.

Additionally, tobacco and feast food must be laid out as a gift to the spirits who accompany the healer. Shkotay explained that powerful healings could occur in this manner.

The astral body has various names in different cultures:

  • The Hebrews call it ruach.
  • In Egypt, it’s known as ka.
  • The Greeks knew it as eidolon.
  • The Romans called it larva.
  • In Tibet, it’s referred to as the bardo body.
  • Ancient Hindus called it pranamayakosha.
  • Buddhists referred to it as the rupa.
  • In Germany, it is Jüdel, Doppel-gänger, or fylgja.
  • Ancient Britons gave it various terms: fetch, waft, tisk, or fye.
  • In Ancient China, it was thankhi.

Some in the scientific community explain astral travel as an ancestral memory from the days when—according to Darwin’s theory—our predecessors were either aquatic or airborne creatures. Psychologists refer to astral dreams as a type of depersonalization, or a means of avoiding being grounded in normal reality. However, anthropologists have found that astral travel is a common event, deeply rooted in indigenous cultures.

The beliefs of the astral traveler determine the pattern of his or her experience. For example, in Eastern Peru, the shaman imagines he’s leaving his body in the form of a bird. Whereas some Asian tribesmen view the silver cord as a ribbon, thread, or a rainbow. Africans perceive it as a rope, the natives of Borneo, as a ladder.

Regardless of how the phenomenon is defined, it appears common among astral travelers that a type of cord is viewed as a connection between the astral and physical body.


Denise Linn’s new book,  Kindling The Native Spirit was released last month and is full of ancient sacred practices to enhance your connection to the mysterious forces around you.


Source: https://www.healyourlife.com/astral-projection-101-a-powerful-secret-from-native-cultures

Two Varieties of Projection

There are two types or varieties of astral projection: the spontaneous and the experimental. In the former, the individual undergoing the experience merely finds himself projected without knowing how or why; he finds himself outside his own physical body – which he can clearly see – but how he got there he does not know. This usually happens during a traumatic stock or illness.

In the latter, the experimenter makes a determined and voluntary effort to project usually to some definite locality and wakes up, to find himself there, or en route. Of course, the vast majority of such attempts end in failure; successes are extremely rare. Or the subject may be seen by some individual at the locality in question, and remain quite unconscious of his apparent success. Examples of all types or varieties of projection are to be found, together with an analysis of the modus operandi involved, and an explanation of the success or failure, as the case may be.

Let us consider, first of all, a few typical cases of spontaneous projection. This may occur, theoretically, when the subject is asleep, in trance, while under the influence of an anaesthetic, etc. Or it may occur when the subject is awake and conscious, but merely relaxed – at least at the beginning of the experience. A good illustration of this may be found in a book entitled My Travels in the Spirit World, by Caroline D. Larsen, where we read:

Suddenly I underwent a very strange experience. A feeling of deep oppression and apprehension came over me, not unlike that which precedes a fainting-spell. I braced myself against it, but to no avail. The overpowering oppression deepened, and soon numbness crept over me until every muscle became paralyzed. In this condition I remained for some time. My mind, however, was still working as clearly as ever. At first I heard the music (downstairs) plainly, but soon the sounds began to slip away from me by degrees until finally everything became a blank, and I was unconscious to the world. How long this state lasted I do not know. What happened during this period I am also unable to relate. The next thing I knew was that I, myself, was standing on the floor beside my bed looking down attentively at my own physical body lying in it. I recognized every line of that familiar face, pale and still as in death, the eyes tightly closed and the mouth partly open. The arms and hands rested limp and lifeless beside the body. I turned and walked slowly towards the door, passed through it and into a hall that led to the bathroom. Through force of habit I went through the motions of turning on the electric light, which, of course, I did not actually turn on. But there was no need for illumination, for from my body and face emanated a strong whitish light that lighted up the room brilliantly.

This example of a spontaneous out of body experience parallels the early experiences of Robert Monroe when it started to project without any control over the experience. Also we must note the similar reaction to many when to look upon their sleeping body. The stock of being mildly disgusted by their sleeping body is a key point to remember should you ever find yourself looking upon your sleeping self.

One of my own early experiences as I left my body was the moment I was floating over my body and my brother, with whom I shared a room, awoke in the the semi sleep state and looked at my floating body and started to scream. I quickly returned to my body at which point my parent came into the room and asked what happened. My brother sat up and apparently believed he must have had a bad dream, as he could not remember what had frightened him.

In the case published by Dr. I. K. Funk, in his Psychic Riddle, the writer describes how he lost control of his body by reason of a cold stiffness which spread over it, on a number of occasions before having his first conscious projection. On the occasion in question, after these preliminary symptoms, he first of all became momentarily unconscious:

“There came a flashing of lights in my eyes and a ringing in my ears, and it seemed for an instant as though I had become unconscious. When I came out of this state, I seemed to be walking in the air. No words can describe the exhilaration and freedom that I experienced. No words can describe the clearness of mental vision. At no time in my life had my mind been so clear or so free. I became conscious of being in a room and looking down on a body propped-up in bed, which I recognized as my own. I cannot tell what strange feelings came over me; I, this body, to all intents and purposes, looked to be dead. There was no indication of life about it, and yet here I was, apart from the body, with my mind thoroughly clear and alert, and the consciousness of another body to which matter of any kind offered no resistance. After what might have been a minute or two, looking at the body, I began to try and control it, and in a very short time all sense of separation from the physical body ceased, and I was only conscious of a directed effort toward its use. After what seemed to be quite a long time, I was able to move, got up from the bed and dress myself, and went down to breakfast. As to the criticism invariably advanced – that this was a mere vivid dream, the writer says: “I know that many people may think that the statements recorded here are simply the result of an active imagination or perhaps a dream, but they are neither the one nor the other. If the whole world were to rise up it would not make one particle of difference in my mind, as I am absolutely certain that I have been as free from my physical body as I ever will be, and that my life apart from it was far more wonderful than any life I have ever experienced in it.”

The case of Dr, Wiltse is very well known. It was first printed in the St. Louis Medical and Surgical Journal, November, 1889, and afterwards in Vol. VIII of the S.P.R. Proceedings. It was also published, in part, in Human Personality. In view of this, only a few brief extracts from this most interesting case will be given referring the reader to the above sources for the full account. After a few preliminary remarks and descriptions, Dr. Wiltse goes on to say:

“With all the interest of a physician I beheld the wonders of my bodily anatomy, intimately interwoven with which, even tissue for tissue, was I, the living soul of that dead body. I watched the interesting process of the separation of soul and body. By some power, apparently not my own, the Ego was rocked to an fro, laterally, as a cradle is rocked, by which process its connection with the tissues of the body was broken up. After a little time, the latter motion ceased, and along the souls of the feet, beginning at the toes, passing rapidly to the heels, I felt and heard, as it seemed, the snapping of innumerable small cords. When this was accomplished I began slowly to retreat from the feet, towards the head, as a rubber cord shortens. As I emerged from the head I floated up and down and laterally like a soap bubble attached to the bowl of a pipe until I at last broke loose from the body and fell lightly to the floor, where I slowly rose and expanded into the full stature of a man. I seemed to be translucent, of a bluish cast and perfectly naked. I directed my gaze (to the bed) and saw my own dead body. It was lying just as I had taken so much pains to place it, partially upon the right side, the feet close together, and the hands clasped across the breast. I was surprised at the paleness of the face. I turned and passed out of the open door.”

Dr. Wiltse then relates a number of mental experiences which he had during his extended trip including the perception of certain things which he did not know existed, but which were subsequently verified and found correct and, at the conclusion of his astral journey, he was suddenly arrested by what appeared to be a dense, black cloud: “A small, densely black cloud appeared in front of me and advanced toward my face. I knew that I was to be stopped. I felt the power to move or to think leaving me. My hands fell powerless to my sides, my shoulders and head dropped forward, the cloud touched my face and I knew no more”

When he regained consciousness, he was in his own physical body.

The case of the Rev. L. J. Bertrand, also given in Proceedings, Vol. VIII, p. 194, is thus summarized by Mr. Myers:

“During a dangerous ascent of the Titlis, Mr. Bertrand separated from his companions, sat down to rest, and became paralyzed by the cold. His head, however, remained clear, and he experienced the sensation described by Dr. Wiltse of passing out of his body and remained attached to it by a kind of elastic string. While in this condition, he had clairvoyant impressions about his absent companions, and much astonished them on their return by describing their doings to them. . . .”

Why some people have these experiences while the majority of people can go through life without any clear remembrance of similar events in their own lives, is, I believe, a reflection of the level of consciousness. The level of consciousness can be developed, thankfully, using many techniques of introspection, mindfulness and focussed exercises.


A Rare Account of Liberation from Prison

Many people believe that the subject of astral projection can be highly influenced by media and expectations, so when Jack London, the author of White Fang and the Call of the Wild is introduced to a man who discovers the ability to leave his body while in prison with no previous knowledge on the subject. We feel we are given a rare glimpse at a person whose raw experiences in the out of body states are an amazing validation of the experiences.

Jack London’s last published novel before his death tells the story of a prisoner in solitary confinement who escapes the pain of a straitjacket by astral travels. Despite some critics’ assertions that it’s his greatest book, The Star Rover has never been very popular. It was written in 1913-14, when London was probably the most famous writer in America. Yet when published in 1915, it sold fewer copies than any of his previous works and eventually went out of print. It was republished in England in 1967 under the title The Jacket, and appears to only recently have been reprinted in America.

From Prison Reform to Astral Travel

The two main themes are prison reform and astral travel through past lives. When London was 16 years old he was imprisoned for 30 days for vagrancy, “an experience he found so traumatic that he vowed that thenceforward instead of actually living the hobo life which had left him friendless and terrified behind bars, he would only write about it—and doing so get rich and famous.
A reader might think London himself had practiced, or at least was interested in, reincarnation and astral travel. However, it appears London’s mother, a spiritualist who conducted séances, may have been an initial inspiration. “London consciously seems to have felt that these practices were a sham,” wrote Stewart Gabel.
Fiedler relates that London never had an out-of-body experience himself, but learned about it from Ed Morrell, a convicted felon on whom the story is based. While in California’s San Quentin State Prison, Morrell was accused of having a secret stash of dynamite and spent five years in solitary confinement, much of in the jacket, due to the false accusation (the same story as in London’s novel). Morrell inadvertently learned etheric projection while in the jacket, and was able to walk around San Francisco and confirm his experiences were real. (One time he witnessed a shipwreck just off the coast that he later read about in the papers.) His journeys are recounted in his memoirs, The 25th Man – The Strange Story of Ed Morrell, the Hero of Jack London’s Star Rover. Eventually Morrell was released from prison and became an outspoken prison reformer. The words of London’s protagonist Darrell Standing could have been spoken by him:

Solitary confinement, they call it. Men who endure it, call it living death. But through these five years of death-in-life I managed to attain freedom such as few men have ever known. Closest-confined of prisoners, not only did I range the world, but I ranged time. They who immured me for petty years gave to me, all unwittingly, the largess of centuries.

A Quick Guide to Astral Travel

When Standing first starts to have out-of-body experiences (OBOEs), his method is to put his conscious mind to sleep and then let loose his subconscious mind. At first his subconscious was undisciplined and incoherent. Then Ed Morrell—whom London made a character in The Star Rover—teaches him a method that could be straight out of a book on self-hypnosis or astral projection.

In the novel, Morrell is a few cells away from Standing, also in solitary confinement. Unable to talk to each other due to the watchful eye of guards, he teaches Standing how to have a more intense OBO via their secret language of knuckle-rapping on the cell bars. Morrell tells him to will himself to die: Lying on your back, you start with a toe and use your will to make it die, and work your way up the body until your body is completely dead and only the consciousness remains:

The thing you must think and believe is that your body is one thing and your spirit is another thing. You are you, and your body is something else that don’t amount to shucks. Your body don’t count. You’re the boss. You don’t need any body. And thinking and believing all this you proceed to prove it by using your will. You make your body die.

Using this method Standing feels his mind enlarging and time and space expanding until he knows without opening his eyes that he’s no longer in his cell. His heart slows so much he can no longer count the space between its beats. His first experience is among the stars. He then journeys through numerous past lives, which he writes down later on Murderer’s Row. Time passes so quickly in the jacket, he’s no longer afraid of the warden’s constant threats to make him reveal his nonexistent stash of explosives: “Dynamite or curtains!”

The Star Rover Through Time

Many of Standing’s past life experiences are based on actual historical figures. He relives the life of Daniel Foss, who was shipwrecked on a barren island in 1809, lived off seal meat for five years, and later wrote A journal of the shipwreck and sufferings of Daniel Foss. In another life, Standing is a young boy involved in the Mountain Meadows massacre in Utah in 1857, when Mormon settlers conspired with members of the Paiute Indian tribe to slaughter a group of pioneers in covered wagons. Another past life is based on an account written by Hendrick Hamel, who was shipwrecked with other Dutchmen in Korea in the mid-seventeenth century. He was also a friend of Pilate in Rome who discusses divergent views of the afterlife with a devotee of Jesus. Standing eventually concludes Memory is only thing that remains after death—similar to the views of experienced astral traveler Aleister Crowley.

An Ode to the Eternal Feminine

A sense of peace and quiet joy comes at the end of the sometimes-depressing novel, when Standing realizes that in all of his lives, for all the times he fought, risked his life, and even died, it was for the love of woman. It has been for woman that man has tamed the horse, slew the mammoth, and harvested rice and wheat. Even in his heavens, “Valkyrie or houri, man has fain made place for her, for he could see no heaven without her.” Standing continues his praise of the eternal woman:

I conclude that the greatest thing in life, in all lives, to me and to all men, has been woman, is woman, and will be woman so long as the stars drift in the sky and the heavens flux eternal change. Greater than our toil and endeavour, the play of invention and fancy, battle and star-gazing and mystery—greatest of all has been woman.

The Star Rover should have a place on lists of top American novels and top occult novels. Some have said it’s like a collection of short stories delving into all of London’s interests, and each past life is quite fascinating for a general historical overview. Others have compared it to The Count of Monte Cristo. London’s last novel before his untimely death in 1916 at age 40, The Star Rover weaves together social reform, men’s rights, reincarnation, and historical drama, and will be a riveting read to anyone interested in astral travel or past life regression.

The Star Rover is highly recommended reading from the Astral Institute.

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New Frontier Magazine interviewed Robert Monroe in 1994, here is a transcript of that meeting.

For as long as humankind can remember, we have questioned what happens when we die? We speak of “going home,” Heaven, Nirvana, etc., and countless religions have been formed over eons to regulate the answers. In our search, some of us have discovered fibers of similarities to the process in most religions, although their mythological presentations have become ingrained belief-systems to many, even causing wars over the methods.

In this century–the last of this millennium–there has been scientific investigation, commonly called parapsychology, which has documented and researched such subjects as reincarnation, other dimensions of existence, soul travel and altered states of consciousness. Many of these investigations embrace the essential metaphysical techniques of religious and spiritual paths.

In 1958, Robert A. Monroe had an experience which would change the direction of his life forever, and I am not figuratively speaking.
As president and chief executive officer of the successful Monroe Industries (radio & TV broadcasting), he had, two years before, in 1956, started a research division in his company that focused on sleep disorders, sleep patterns, learning and altered states of consciousness. In many experiments–using sound to induce changes in brain-wave patterns–Monroe used himself as the subject.
He was never, and is not now, a religious man, and prefers to not to discuss religious philosophy, except to show the obvious relationship to his work. In fact, although he could easily use words like soul, karma, God, etc., in his conversations, he chooses to identify words, processes and situations with simple scientific labels like the “M Field, “”Wave 1,” “Focus 12,” etc.

Hundreds of thousands of people have attended the institute’s Gateway in Virginia, and this past month, The Wall Street Journal devoted a front-page story to his work, publicly stating that many corporate executives, from companies such a Dupont and the U.S Army’s Intelligence Agency have sent representatives to Monroe’s programs. Even Senator Claiborne Pell of Rhode Island has attended the Institute’s programs. For information write: The Monroe Institute, Rt 1, Box 175, Faber, VA 22938.

Interviewer: Today, more people than ever seem to be talking about going beyond the physical plane. Books dealing with near-death experiences, and out- of-body experiences are on the best seller lists, and Hollywood has recently given us countless films on the subject. You are, by acclamation, the leader in the field of out-of-body experiences. Tell us how you got involved.
Robert Monroe: My background and training is in electrical engineering, with two years of pre-med. I could never accept something as simply a belief, and always had to convert it into a known by a traditional scientific method. When something happens, it’s interesting, but it may not be a reality. Statistically, the third, fourth, and fifth time it occurs, you can verify it.
That’s what happened to me. It took me a full year to convert a series of events, and verify it to produce a reality for me, and that was the out-of-body state, which I discussed in my book Journeys Out of the Body, published some 25 years ago.
It 1956, my company was looking for some diversification. We decided to do research into how people learn during sleep, and to attempt accelerated learning methods. Our company was one of the leaders in the use of sound, and we set up an R&D department to research the area. That’s how it started.
I was in our research lab, going thorough a sound session and noticed this peculiar vibrational state happening to my body as I was about to go into a sleep state. It didn’t hurt. It wasn’t a physical shaking. So it couldn’t come under a seizure or an epileptic disorder. So what was it? As I would lie down to sleep it would begin to occur. We know much more about it now, but at the time I would resist it, and sit up and let it fade.
Interviewer: Did you feel an electrical feeling in your body?
Robert Monroe: No, it didn’t feel electrical or physical. It felt sort of like a paralysis. We went through a number of studies. After a while I’d wait until it would just get over, so I could go to sleep, even when I wasn’t in the lab. Very likely it was caused by the experiments we were doing in the lab, but of the 60 or so people in the study, no one else experienced the phenomenon. So I didn’t have anything to gauge it by. We stopped the program because of what was happening to me.
This sensation happened to periodically for the next couple of years, and I always would simply will myself to get out of it.
One night, after about 15 runs of waiting for it to get over so I could go to sleep, I had my first recognizable OBE. On that fateful Friday in 1958, as I lying in bed waiting for the vibrations to stop, I thought, “Ah, the cold front has come through. There’d be a lot of northwest wind up at Berksboro, where I was doing sail plane flying.” I was thinking how nice the thermals would be in addition to the ridge lifts. That’s when I found myself bouncing against something.
I was bouncing against what looked like an odd flat floor, with what looked like a fountain sticking up out of it. I turned around and realized I was bouncing up against the ceiling, and that the “fountain” was the chandelier hanging down! I looked down and saw that it was my bedroom. I thought, “This is a strange dream,” but I wasn’t frightened.
I looked down at the bed, and there was my wife in bed, and there was someone in bed with her. I thought in an amused way, “Whom would I dream to be in bed with my wife?” [laughter]. With a great shock I saw that it was me! That did frighten me. I thought I was dying and that this was part of the dying process. So I frantically “swam” through the air and plopped back into my body. I sat up, panicked. My wife was sound asleep beside me, and everything was quiet. I didn’t go back to sleep that night, and went to the doctor the next day.
I went through an intense medical examination. The doctors found no unusual physiological patterns, everything was normal, other than the fact that I was worried because I thought this was the death process. That was the first time.
Finally I got the courage to let it happen again. I say “let,” because I wasn’t consciously doing anything to make it happen. After about 10 times, over a period of 3 weeks, I realized it wasn’t going to kill me. Very simply, I just lost my fear.
If I were to relax and unwind in bed, this “vibration” would begin, then all I’d have to do was to think a certain way, and I would float outward. I then began to play around with it, knowing it wasn’t going to kill me. That gave me a certain freedom.
Interviewer: Were You working with a staff of people at the time?
Robert Monroe: Yes, I again started the research, and had two company people doing research full time. I told them to check it out. They were trying to find answers we hadn’t even looked for, and discovered there was an underground in our culture dealing with the phenomena. One part of that underground was an infant science called parapsychology. We had not researched anything anywhere near as deep as what people had studied because we were only looking in one area. My researchers began to gather pieces of information from all over. In the early days, J.B Ryan of Duke University was one of them.
Interviewer: Was there a change in your career then?
Robert Monroe: My life’s work from then on has been to convert these things into knowledge instead of beliefs. We no longer call it the out-of-body state, we now call it “phasing.”
Interviewer: Tell us about phasing.
Robert Monroe: As you are now listening to me, your consciousness is focused 100 percent in time and space. However, if you were thinking, “Did I turn the coffee off before I left home,” you are a little bit out of phase–a “flash” out of phase. We do flash out of phase periodically. Daydreaming is an illustration. We all flicker in and out. Typically, over 15 percent of one’s consciousness is in some non- physical condition at all times. One of key phases that is under conscious control is meditation or contemplation. That is when 25 percent or more of “you” is in another state, by your willing it so.
There are other ways of phasing, caused by injury, alcohol and drugs, and forms of psychosis. Schizophrenia is a classic example. These are where you have a split personality. In a split personality, another part of you is experiencing or doing something else that does not coincide with your physical body, which causes problems.
Interviewer: When you say “you,” what do you mean?
Robert Monroe: I mean the person who is experiencing this. It’s mind, not just consciousness. It’s the part of the mind that is applying consciousness. Consciousness is a thing that inhabits a physical body, driven and controlled by the mind. There is a very valid purpose to why it is that way.
You’re focusing here, because you’re living here and you’re experiencing here. But, because of what we are we can’t help but begin to experience something beyond this physical consciousness.
Interviewer: You recently developed a program called Going Home. There’s a lot of concern with the plague that’s upon us now, with increasing deaths. Where is “home?”
Robert Monroe: It depends entirely upon the individual. There’s so much involved. Only you know what your home is. These are products of our belief systems. We’ve had various ones throughout, such as you had in India. Your “home” may be different than say that of a born-again Christian. One’s “home” is different when one gathers the experiences to make it different. There’s an old song called, Show Me The Way To Go Home.” Home means not in the physical sense, but it’s symbolic. This yearning to go home is maybe what triggers our scientists to explore things like the moon. They feel that home is out there, not in here.
The Going Home program was designed to ease the trauma that people have attached to physical death. While it’s aimed at terminal cases, it’s as important to that person’s support group–family, friends, loved ones and care- givers. They suffer as much as the individual during the death process. It goes through a sequence of which we know very well.
First, through the phasing process we are getting rid of the fear of death. The method in itself gets them into a consciousness state where they know that they survive physical death. It’s not a religious belief, they get right to the knowledge. The moment they get to that, the fear of death disappears, since they learn they do survive physical death.
If someone listening to these tapes is not terminally ill, listening won’t kill them. It’s going through a process of knowing that you survive physical death. Once that happens, the death process then becomes interesting, as opposed to something fearful or traumatic.
Interviewer: In your new book, Ultimate Journey, you talk about a place called the “park.” Tell us about this.
RM: We’ve had a program that we conduct at the Institute called Lifeline where our trained staff learn to retrieve people who have just died and don’t know what to do.
Interviewer: Retrieve people?
Robert Monroe: Yes. They’ve just died, and they’re bewildered. They’re are shocked and traumatized. We’ve had twenty-five such programs over the past four years, and there have been fifteen people who have made at least five retrievals of people who have died, and have escorted them to this place called “Focus 27.” It’s a park, and it’s not our creation, believe me. They are there to get over the trauma of death. We escort them there to rest and recuperate, and figure out what they are going to do next.
Interviewer: It sounds like a psychic tour service.
Robert Monroe: [laughter] It’s exactly that. There is so religious space there. What often happens is after they recuperate from the trauma, they will then go to the belief system territories. If they are a catholic, they’ll go to the “golden gates,” or are escorted there.
Interviewer: What if one was a rapist and knew they had done bad, and would have eternal hell?
Robert Monroe: I am not an authority on that. It depends on what they do as they cool off from the death process. Then they can think about it. There are counselors, but they don’t call themselves that, who are human, who help people get over these kinds of things.
Interviewer: So, you say growth and awareness continues out of the body?
RM: Absolutely.
Interviewer: How is this knowledge retained? In our physical form we have brains that act as computer hardware which we are able to program. It sounds like your are speaking of the akashic records of Eastern thought.
Robert Monroe: There is an energy field that permeates time-space. It is not of time-space. It’s been labeled many things by various religions and philosophers. Its a very applicable type of energy. We tried to find a neutral label for it that wouldn’t get into loaded religious connotations. So we call it the “M-Field.” We went through the alphabet to try to find a simple label. You’d be surprised on how there’s “R- Fields,” “X- Fields,” etc.
This energy field is where all these patterns are stored. We are a matrix within that “M-Field.” Our problem is that we have no way to measure this scientifically. We don’t yet have the tools. We only have the mind-brain. Oh, and there are animals of course. There are hidden agenda type things with animals, but they’re using the same thing. This energy field penetrates our world continually, yet we are unable to identify and measure it.
Some things we have done are find applications of it, and train people in it. That’s what our programs at the Institute do.
Interviewer: In your book you also talk about an “executive committee,” which I found difficult to comprehend. Are you talking about one soul and many bodies that we’ve visited?
Robert Monroe: It’s hard to believe, but it was as late as 1990, that I was forced to explore myself. I discovered, through my great astonishment, that I–the non-physical me-am composed of literally hundreds of previous life personalities and experiences. If we call it reincarnation that implies a law that forces you to do it. What “forces” one to come back into another life is addiction!
It’s our choice. I don’t look upon it as karma. That law of karma is really you. For example, if there were something I didn’t get a chance to do in this life, I would get to do it in another life.
A classic illustration is my mother. My mother was an medical doctor. She had four children, of which I was one. She was also the wife of a college professor. She got very busy, and eventually had to drop her medical practice. There was one thing she was never able to do in this life, but once a year. At Christmas she’d bring out a cello, which she played quite well. She’d play it at Christmas and then she’d put it away.
She died in her mid-eighties. I went to see her before she died in 1969. I had sent her a copy of the Journeys Out of the Body manuscript, and she wrote me saying she’d like to talk to me about it. We were talking on a Sunday night, when all of a sudden, her eyes rolled up into her head and she went, “Ahh”, then she exhaled, but her eyes stayed rolled back.
I thought, “There she goes.” But after about thirty seconds her breath came back, her eyes opened, and she looked at me and said, “That was very interesting.” I found out, that after sending her the manuscript, she had been practicing phasing. She could deliberately go out of her body, and she told me she had established a “beachhead.”
She said that when she died, her sister and brother would be waiting for her. Interestingly enough, the following Tuesday, as I was heading for the office, I felt her presence about 8:15 in the morning. Just to prove her point, she reached over and squeezed my knee. I couldn’t see her or anything, but I could feel here pressure. She was saying good-by.
Five years later, we found out, that one year after her death, she was a one-year-old in a village in Italy. We got her name, address, in a non-physical investigation. We did find out that in that village there was a one-year-old girl that fit the name we had discovered in our non-physical investigation. Five years later we discovered that she was amazing, and attracted a lot of attention as a child violinist.
So, she went back to do the thing she was unable to do in this life.
Interviewer: You’re saying that the earth plane is a place for us to learn…
Robert Monroe: Absolutely!
Interviewer: Yet, when you’re outside this body you also learn. I once asked the entity Lazarus, “You’ve not in a body. What about touch, sex and sensations like eating a strawberry?” He said they could achieve that at levels we couldn’t comprehend. So, why do we ever come back to the earth plane?
Robert Monroe: A very basic reason. There are certain things that are unique here. We learn manipulation of energy without knowing how much and how valuable it is. As you’re talking on the phone now, you are manipulating energy to do this.
Just by waving your hand you are using bio-chemical energy, electrical energy, etc. These are exquisitely valuable along the energy spectrum. The learning and application of energy fields is what the earth plane experience is all about.
Interviewer: You talk about a thing called the “human plus.” How do we achieve this?
Robert Monroe: By moving away from fear and the things that restrict us. Once you begin to realize that you are learning these things in ways that you don’t know you are- -things that you have been doing physically can be applied in many non-physical ways. Let’s say you’ve learned to walk, and then you can wave your wings and you can fly. All you have to do is create wings.
Interviewer: In your book, you were talking to all of your many selves. Different selves were coming through. Are you a also a channel?
Robert Monroe: I have one personality of mine that needles me, saying, “Why don’t you step aside and let me come in, you could be a tremendous channel.” [laughter]. He was of a civilization over 200,000 years ago that’s totally away from our type. No, I don’t channel, not in that sense. One of my early personalities is from the sixth century. I was a court jester. So if I want to be funny, I let that court jester do his act.
Interviewer: What can you say about channeling?
Robert Monroe: Let me put it this way, the ones that I’ve met, I have believed. I don’t know for sure, but I have some ideas about it. I think they are other personalities from when that individual lived before.
Interviewer: Do you think that’s true in every case?
Robert Monroe: That’s my opinion. There may be an external source that’s worked its way into it. Three of the more prominent channels originated here at our Institute.
Interviewer: Who were you when you weren’t?
Robert Monroe: You’re asking about my point of origin?
Interviewer: You know you’ve had a hundred bodies, maybe a 1000 bodies. But what was the point when you weren’t in a body?
Robert Monroe: I’ve given that a lot of thought, quite naturally. Who I was, was a matrix of energy. That was a part of this whole creative process. It’s in my new book. Where I know many thing I didn’t know before. I had ignored this whole business of having multiple personalities and multiple previous lives. I was reminded of it, but I ignored it. I was forced to do it because in order to do some other things, I had to get that knowledge.
Interviewer: Tell us about some of your current research at the Monroe Institute?
Robert Monroe: We are a so-called advanced civilization that spends a third of its life without having any solid exploration of it from the viewpoint of what it really is. Our culture knows virtually nothing about the sleep state.
We’ve produced much data around what it is, and what it isn’t. We developed the idea from this strange phenomena that was happening to me. We now know the greatest quantum leap in our culture would be to really know about sleep. We’ve found that’s what we’ve been doing all these years, is having people establish these altered states of consciousness within the sleep state. What we call “Focus-10”–the mind awake the body asleep, is where your consciousness has moved into another state of awareness. The EEG patterns, and the bio-chemical patterns are so identical to the EEG patterns of stage one sleep, you can’t tell the difference.
Interviewer: So, you’re saying that to move into these states when you’re awake, you don’t need to physically go onto a bed and lie down. You can go into this sleep state any time?
Robert Monroe: Our contemporary methods of measurement indicate that. What we have in “Focus-21” is the equivalent of the “stage four” sleep state. We’ve had people in the out-of-body state, who take the EEG test, and people in a normal sleep state, and they are identical. The implication is that there’s so much more of us in this sleep state, that if we would study this scientifically, this whole area of consciousness offers so much prospect, it really makes it a New Frontier.
Interviewer: The strength of so many religions seems to be to maintain society. In some groups, Buddhists and Christians talk about penance or retribution, if we don’t do good in this life. Your work seems to say that this doesn’t matter.
Robert Monroe: It depends. We go by certain rules or laws that aren’t man-made at all, that do apply, not only here, but to whatever you do after you are no longer physical. There are simple basic laws. One is change. Change is just as valid after you die as it is here. Another is Cause and Effect, with subheads of action-reaction, and authority-responsibility.
Interviewer: But, if we know that we don’t die, what’s wrong with me going out, like Adolph Hitler, and killing six million Jews and helping them to evolve. Couldn’t we look at Hitler as a hero for helping them to evolve?
Robert Monroe: [laughter] No we wouldn’t, because of cause and effect. If you were Hitler and killed 6 million people, they’d be waiting for you. [laughter]
Interviewer: Are you saying that there are people on the other side who are not that conscious?
Robert Monroe: I’m saying that it’s cause and effect, don’t you see?
Interviewer: You’re saying that these people were in their own process, doing their own learning, and he pulled the plug on them.
Robert Monroe: That’s right, and when he gets there, it’s a form of hell.
Interviewer: They can’t beat you or whip you. What happens?
Robert Monroe: They can make it uncomfortable for you. That’s a polite way of saying it.
Interviewer: Couldn’t one come back into a body and clean their act up?
Robert Monroe: You could. But you don’t have to come back into a physical body to do that though.
Interviewer: What does your daily workday or workload look like?
Robert Monroe: I’m in a different state of being these days. I made some very profound mistakes in assessment.
About 3 years ago my wife Nancy contracted cancer. It’s for this occasion that I put together the Lifeline program. It was sort of my death insurance, so that we would still be in relationship after she died. Two years ago last August, she did die. I didn’t take the death process very well, because we were so tremendously close.
When the hospital called to tell me she was dying, I rushed over. When I got there she wasn’t in her body. She was going through “Chain Stokes” breathing, which meant the last part of life. I made a terrible mistake of not being more familiar with the death process. As a result about a week later I tried to get in touch with her. I “went out,” where I knew where I could find her. In doing so I encountered an overwhelming emotional impact. It was like a mental-emotional explosion. I couldn’t handle it. So I came back. About two weeks later, I tried it again and simply couldn’t handle the huge impact. I realized I had to make up my mind, to either complete things here, or if I continued this, the next time I wouldn’t be able to come back.
I set up a shield and cut off my OBE ability. What’s holding me here is that there is something I still have to do. Unless I put up this shield, I wouldn’t be able to do it. This has cut off all of my non-physical activity.
Interviewer: So, you’ve not “gone out” since then?
Robert Monroe: I haven’t been to the “other side” since September of 1992. I’m now devoid of, not only of Nancy, but all of the other contacts and communications. I can open it up, but I know I wouldn’t return here.
Interviewer: Is it fear?
Robert Monroe: It has nothing to do with fear. There is some other process that I need to do before I can go.
Interviewer: You know that but you don’t know what it is?
RM: That’s correct. I don’t know what it is, but it isn’t “going home.”
Interviewer: You realized that you wouldn’t be doing anymore work here. You’d die.
Robert Monroe: Yes.
Interviewer: What will you be doing? How is the book going?
Robert Monroe: It’s in its fourth printing. I don’t know whether you’re aware of some strange events are taking place nationally. As a person who has worked in this field, I’m aware of prime time TV exhibiting some very strange characteristics. For example NBC and PBS have had a 2 hour programs on angels, and CBS now has a series called Touched By An Angel. A producer just wouldn’t do that unless the vice president of network programming weren’t encouraging it.
I was a vice president of network programming, so I know. They wouldn’t do such controversial things. And there have been so many, near- death experience specials, and they are continuing to come. They got into CBS if you can believe that.
Interviewer: Do you believe we are in the end times of our species?
Robert Monroe: No, not in end times of the species. We did some future time research back in the seventies. There is a massive change about to come. Either humankind will have a quantum leap in consciousness, or it will plateau out and will, in a relatively short time, no longer be the dominant species here.
If you’re objective, you’ll see it all over the world.
Interviewer: Any closing statement?
Robert Monroe: I say this because of the label of your publication–New Frontier Magazine. To me, the great future is knowing how to apply, in all areas, this energy field that happens accidentally. We use it, yet we don’t know how to really apply it. We now have the opportunity. We have the mind and the technology to do it.
The indicators are that our promotional media, mainly television, is getting into this kind of stuff. What’s the force behind that?
Interviewer: Thank you so much for the time you’ve taken to talk with us.

OBEs, or out-of-body experiences, are a phenomenon that allows you to travel through time and space outside of waking conscious. But do the really exist? We speak with NASA scientist Thomas Campbell, an expert and author in the field of physics with actual proof and details that anyone can have an OBE.


Tom Campbell began researching altered states of consciousness with Bob Monroe. He worked at the Monroe Laboratories in the early 1970s. He and a few others were instrumental in getting Monroe’s laboratory for the study of consciousness up and running. These early drug-free consciousness pioneers helped design experiments. He developed the technology for creating specific altered states. Campbell has been experimenting with, and exploring the subjective and objective mind ever since. For the past thirty years, Campbell has been focused on scientifically exploring the properties, boundaries, and abilities of consciousness.

During that same time period, he has excelled as a working scientist. A professional physicist dedicated to pushing back the frontiers of cutting edge technology, large-system simulation, technology development and integration, and complex system vulnerability and risk analysis.

Tom Campbell and Bob Monroe

Tom is the “TC (physicist)” described in Bob Monroe’s second book ‘Far Journeys‘. He has been a serious explorer of the frontiers of reality, mind, consciousness, and psychic phenomena since the early 1970s. My Big TOE is a model of existence and reality that is based directly on Campbell’s scientific research and first hand experience. It represents the results and conclusions of thirty years of careful scientific exploration of the boundaries and contents of reality from both the physical and metaphysical viewpoints. The author has made every effort to approach his explorations without bias or preconceived notions. There is no belief system, dogma, creed, or unusual assumptions at the root of My Big TOE.

By demanding high quality repeatable, empirical, evidential data to separate what’s real (exists independently and externally) from what’s imaginary or illusory; Campbell has scientifically derived this general model of reality.

With over 15 years of experience and research into the subject of Astral projection and out of body experiences under her belt, Sandie Gustus breaks down the process into practical steps that anyone can exercise. She takes us through her new book “Less Incomplete” which delves into topics such as Identifying your purpose in life, Recalling recent past lives, Using energy as a form of healing, and how to communicate with multidimensional entities among other fascinating topics.

For more about Sandie click here


Less Incomplete: A Guide to Experiencing the Human Condition beyond the Physical Body

by Sandie Gustus

Highly recommended reading by the Astral Institute. This, the first book to summarize the work of Brazilian consciousness researcher, Waldo Vieira MD, for a general nonacademic audience, has the backing of some of the world’s most eminent academic and medical researchers of life after death. Based on two new sciences proposed by Vieira, this book provides a comprehensive understanding of the human condition beyond the physical body, offering readers a profound opportunity to increase their self-awareness, self-confidence, balance and maturity, and fulfil their potential.!

Jeff has  been having intentional out of body experiences (OBEs) for about a year and a half. Ever since he had his first experience by accident, he had become obsessed with trying to recreate the experience learn all about it. He read everything he could get his hands on. He watched countless tutorials and tried all sorts of different techniques. It took him several weeks of daily practice to finally have one intentionally. It was amazing, exhilarating, and totally mind-blowing. Here is his technique!

Astral Projection Technique

  1. Set your alarm for 4 hours after you go to bed. Yup, you’ll be getting up in the middle of the night to do this. For most of you, this is probably around 3 or 4 AM. The reason for this is to get some REM sleep and dream cycles in. You are more likely to have an OBE or lucid dream after you’ve already been sleeping for a few hours. You will be more relaxed and more “ready” so to speak.
  2. Keep yourself occupied for 10-20 minutes. You’re staying awake long enough to not fall immediately back to sleep. What worked for me in the beginning was to read about OBEs or lucid dreams. It also helps if you read or think about this a lot during the day. I also think meditating (or sitting in silence) for 5-10 minutes relax the mind and body and get you in a state of mindfulness. Mindfulness helps you stay aware as you drift off to sleep.
  3. Go back to bed, but NOT in your normal bed. Try the couch or a spare bedroom that you don’t normally sleep in. The slight difference in familiarity will keep your mind more “alert” so you don’t fall asleep as easily. Remember, we’re trying to delicately stay aware while our body drifts off to sleep. This is easier said than done, but it IS possible with practice.
  4. Lie still for at least 30 minutes. I know, this sounds hard, but this is important. Try lying on your back in a relaxed position. If you want, listen to a guided meditation or OBE instruction. I listened to Robert Monroe’s Hemi-Sync audios. Especially the explorer series because it guided you along. They are expensive, but you might be able to find them for free online to try it out. Look up Hemi-Sync or binaural beat meditations on YouTube. Here’s an example. Another alternative is William Bulhman’s How to Have an Out of Body Experience audio instruction. He’s talks about a “target technique” where you picture a location that you know well and hold your focus on that location for as long as possible. If successful, as you fall asleep your consciousness will project into that location. I don’t use that technique, but I heard it helps.
  5. If nothing happens, just go to sleep. I would lie in bed listening to these guided meditations and binaural beats for sometimes up to an hour, with no luck. I couldn’t get relaxed enough to fall asleep, my mind was too alert. If this happens to you, which is likely, just say fuck it and roll over and go to sleep. Forget about having an OBE tonight, try again the next night. Loosely pay attention to any hypnogogic imagery (imaginations, visuals, colors, etc). Don’t have any attachment or expectation. You already did your practice, so good work.
  6. Notice the Vibrational State when it happens. If you notice a shift or change in your body where it’s now vibrating or buzzing with energy, this is the magical state you need to be in! This is a huge milestone, even if you aren’t able to actually project out just yet. For more info on the vibrational state, I wrote about it after these steps.
  7. Project out by rolling, standing up, or simply floating down. There are various ways to project out when in the vibrational state. If you read online, you might find info on the rope technique, target technique, etc. These are all just what worked for that particular person and not right or wrong. I found surrendering and letting go to be what worked for me. If I noticed myself in the vibrational state, I would simply stop resisting, stay still, relax and keep letting go. Just relax and relax and notice yourself floating down or up. I will float down through my bed and out of my body that way.
  8. Think, demand, or declare “clarity now!” When you have begun to feel the separation, if you aren’t automatically “out” yet, you can use your conscious intention or thoughts to say “clarity now!” or “doorway now!” This is somewhat an intermediate step, though. My first time having an intentional OBE I didn’t know these tricks. I just tried to physically get out and I noticed I was standing outside my body in my living room. I was able to walk around and act as if it were “real” life. I later learned that sometimes the environment gets fuzzy or you start to phase back to physical reality. And if that happens, you can rub your hands together (for immediate tactile sensations) or demand clarity and you’ll notice that your reality gets clearer, more vibrant, and more real!
  9. Leave the house, fly, or do something! Once you get out of body and things seem stable, do something! I typically leave the house through my front door (by habit). I know that I could walk through the walls or even think myself to a new location, but I’m not that advanced yet. While I’m out, I just notice how things look. Often they are slightly different than the “real world” I just came from. Sometimes I talk to people that I see (are they other astral travelers, dream characters, dead people, or what?). I sometimes look at my hands or what I’m wearing. I look in the bathroom mirror for weird results! This is up to you. There’s an infinite amount of things you can do in this state, and once you get here, your only limit is your imagination!


Itzhak Bentov was a mechanical engineer, inventor, author and mystic and explorer of cosmic consciousness.

He was able to combine his curious mind with a courageous soul to explore the unknown realms of cosmic consciousness with just wit and humor as his luggage. His plan was to publish some of his work as a comic strip instead of a cosmic trip! Bentov had two ways to prepare himself for his “trips,” which were not drug-induced.

Initially, like Archimedes, he used the “wet method” of soaking in a bathtub full of hot water, going into a “twilight zone” to get flashes or ideas that he scribbled down on a notepad. Later he favored the “drier method” of meditation and relaxed concentration. He wrote:

“I could attain remote reality by simply visualizing myself to be there, and there I was…”

What did Bentov see at the highest levels of cosmic consciousness?

There is no limit to the extent of human cosmic consciousness. It can expand to fill the universe, and then you can talk to the Creator. You can talk to all the beings, who are gods; you have a diplomatic visa to infinity.” – Itzhak Bentov

Bentov described two groups of advanced beings in different areas of the Absolute, the dark void above Manifest Creation, which looks like a translucent, shimmering sphere [which is our multiverse]. This is how he illustrated and described it in his wonderful book:

  1. “Nirvana” (left side) with pure and exalted beings (practically all Easterners) immersed in meditation, experiencing intense eternal bliss caused by pure consciousness flowing unaffected through their bodies out into the Manifest Creation below them. He said they are entitled to their bliss, but will not evolve beyond this state, because once you get in, you can’t get out (see the wall)!
  2. The “Blue-Collar Workers” (right side) have renounced the option of eternal bliss. Pure consciousness flows through their bodies, but they add a slight vibration to it to produce a certain effect on the evolution of particular planets, because they have compassion for the beings on them. They will keep evolving and in time leave the population of Nirvana far behind.

What a fascinating concept! You can take it as a nice metaphor, illustration or story, whatever you like. We also can think of it in fractal terms, as in “as above, so below.”

If pure consciousness is flowing through you right now, how are you modifying it? What are you creating and projecting with your being? What interference pattern or imprint are you leaving to those around you and below you in terms of consciousness?

Is there a manual on how to become a spiritual master?

Bentov and others have said that we each create our own reality. He explained:

“It’s just a trip back home to reunite with your own Self (the observer). We are the creators, the producers and the consumers of our own reality, because we are the consciousness itself.”

That means each of us writes our OWN Manual on How We Are Becoming a Spiritual Master, as we experience, learn and evolve within the multiverse up to the highest level possible.

That also means your path is uniquely yours, so own it. Don’t look for the meaning of life elsewhere. Give it its meaning by who you choose to be and how you choose to do things. Learn as you go. You are no less than a creator being in training in this and every moment of your life, which is eternal.